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 Post subject: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:43 pm 
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Location: 4714
So, sorted the timing this weekend and got all the bodywork back on again. Polished away loads of dirt and glue remains from the stickers the previous owner had attached to the side panels and rode to work today.

On my way back I had to stop by a shop.

When I came out and kicked it over it felt as if the gear was engaged, and the kickstart blocker.

Had to bump start it to get home, and in the garage I tested to kick it over again with the engine still running, which works fine.

Engine off and the kickstart is stuck with that grinding feeling.

Do you think it is the old "broken kickstart shaft" problem I'm facing or could it be something else..?

With the scooter came a second kickstart shaft which I presumed was broken and had earlier been replaced as there was no problem with the kickstart up until an hour ago...

Anyone has any input?

Cheers V


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:50 pm 
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It does sound like it Vic, unless the side casing has cracked around the kickstart boss (had that hapen once). Either way it's case off time :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:14 pm 
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coaster wrote:
It does sound like it Vic, unless the side casing has cracked around the kickstart boss (had that hapen once). Either way it's case off time :roll:


:(

So a new shaft should probably do it then - anywhere in particular I should order it from? Are Allstyles, Scootopia and CamLam all the same here?

From what I remember from the Sticky manual no special tools are needed right...? Only thing missing is a wise with soft grips - will my poor workbench in tree be enough do you think..?

Cheers Victor


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:27 pm 
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So, to have everything ready when I start looking at it and not remain standing there without parts I'll need:

* New shaft
* New piston + peg
* New spring, washer and cir clips
* Some various shims?

Anything else I should consider both in terms of parts as tools and work wise?


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:15 pm 
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Location: 6668 - Norfolk/London
Ther peg is a good idea but you should be able to re-use the piston and springs. Is this for the TV? if so, make sure you get the series 3 shaft and not the GP type umless you side casing has been modified at any point (it was a standard mod in the late 60's early 70's to convert to GP style shafts). Might be best to check what is in there before ordering :wink: Dealer wise, Scooter Restorations are very good and quick.


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:53 pm 
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coaster wrote:
Ther peg is a good idea but you should be able to re-use the piston and springs. Is this for the TV? if so, make sure you get the series 3 shaft and not the GP type umless you side casing has been modified at any point (it was a standard mod in the late 60's early 70's to convert to GP style shafts). Might be best to check what is in there before ordering :wink: Dealer wise, Scooter Restorations are very good and quick.


Wont have time to check before ordering - will take a chance, and I already have an all style order being placed with Vespa spares tomorrow so that fits... Probably best to order the full kit and return what's not needed :D

Hopefully it's not been modified, remember it's Swedish, where there were relatively few Lambrettas, that it seems to have lived it's life in some farmers barn, and that the very same farmer hasn't fitted an original screw since the 60s... Makes me think, when changing the shaft (I got the broken one with the scoot) he probably fitted some sub standard Indian c**p :x

Thanks Coaster, will give it a shot Saturday (why now, when the bodywork is just back on? :( )


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:13 pm 
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There`s not many that haven`t been modified to take a GP shaft.


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:41 pm 
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TS1-200 wrote:
There`s not many that haven`t been modified to take a GP shaft.


Thanks. Is there an easy way of determining which one is currently fitted, preferably without stripping? Can the diameter be measured from the outside?

Or possibly on the replaced shaft I have lying around somewhere?

Cheers Vic


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:10 pm 
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I don't think you can, Victor, the mod involved cutting away some of the boss inside the case (this was done using a special cutting tool in a pillar drill) the daimeter of the shaft remains the same. If it's any help though, my Li 125 Special hadn't been modified, maybe it was mainly 200 engines that suffered kickshaft failure dur to higher compression??


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:28 pm 
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coaster wrote:
I don't think you can, Victor, the mod involved cutting away some of the boss inside the case (this was done using a special cutting tool in a pillar drill) the daimeter of the shaft remains the same. If it's any help though, my Li 125 Special hadn't been modified, maybe it was mainly 200 engines that suffered kickshaft failure dur to higher compression??


I think it was all machines, especially early ones.

However, i'm not sure mine has ever, ever, had a service carried out.

Anyway, placed an order for the regular shaft, will pop by the garage tonight and measure the old shaft if I still have it. If that's a GP one then the one currently in the engine must be one as well.

Otherwise, it's a gamble ;)

Cheers Victor

PS I have beer in the garage if anyone wants to pop by and help :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Measured the old one that came with the scooter (not the one currently in the engine and probably broken) and it measured 67mm if I took the measurement correctly.

That indicates GP shaft right?

Some photos of it:

Image

Image

Image
Wonder if it was scrapped because the piston doesn't come out long enough?

Image
Heavy welding repairs

Image
Logo "PA"

Image
Other logo..

What has me puzzled though is that it doesn't seem as if the shaft is broken... The kickstart isn't stuck as usually the case, instead it grinds the first half of the kick and the second half until the kick-starter reaches the ground feels fine...

Anyway, ordering everything and will change what's broken only...


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:46 am 
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Btw, should I get a new seal as well even though the old one is fine?


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:31 am 
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victorlaszlo wrote:
Btw, should I get a new seal as well even though the old one is fine?


I would, easy to change while you are at it.

The shafts break on the angled section where your spare one has been welded.


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:51 am 
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I think the shaft isn't completely broken, but has started and therefore is a bit bent, and touches the case at a certain point but after half the kick it clears (more space) and works for the rest of the kick...

Well, I'll know on saturday I suppose :)


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 Post subject: Re: kickstart problem - grinding and engaging gear
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:37 pm
Posts: 239
Location: 4714
So, update, the shaft isn't broken, in fact it looks perfectly fine:

Image

Image

There are some evidence of "grinding" on it though:

Image

I believe it's touching the clutch, look at the marks around it:

Image

Everything else looks kind of fine, with the exception of poorly adjusted chain and a lot of metal traces on the oil plug magnet and on the bottom of the chain case:

Image

Image

Image

So, since the kickstart doesn't seem to have any problem, my questions are:

1. What could have caused the grinding on the clutch when engaging the clutch and what can be done to cure it?
2. The chain slack. Can the chain be tensioned in any way or is that only done with the green chain guide?

Many thanks, Vic


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